"Just as the world was not ready for the New Testament before it received the Old, just as the Jews were not prepared for the ministry of Christ until John the Baptist had gone before Him with his claimant call to repentance, so the unsaved are in no condition today for the gospel until the Law be applied to their hearts, for 'by the Law is the knowledge of sin.' It is a waste of time to sow seed on ground which has never been ploughed or spaded! To present the vicarious sacrifice of Christ to those whole dominant passion is to take fill of sin, is to give that which is holy to the dogs." -A.W. Pink
I think this flawed in a very fundamental way. First Pink's argument is flawed because he is comparing different catagories of things as if they were all equal. But aside from that, because I think that isn't necessary to argue his point, I think we need to take the lead from Christ himself. Where do we see Jesus appealing to the law to reveal sinfulness? Really only in a few places. He also appeals to prophetic insight as in the case with the Woman at the well in John, one of my favourite passages BTW. But it isn't a big theme. Yet for Paul, and Paul tends to overshadow Christ in too many modern evangelical movements these days, the law is important. Why? Because he is a Jew. So the law is what he knows, intimately.
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe folks need to know that there is a gulf seperating them from God, but for many starting with the decalogue just doesn't make sense. I believe this is part of an effort to formulize Christianity so that we can make evangelism a simple step-by-step process. Does that really make disciples? Evangelism is much more messy than that. It involves being in the lives of people, eating with sinners and tax collectors. It means touching the lives of lepers and in our day those with AIDS. It means feeding and clothing the poor and needy, not turning them away because you only have enough bread and fish for yourself. It means teaching a different kind of life, where the last are first and the first are last. It does mean telling people tough things when they ask, like give up everything and follow Jesus (just like I have so as not to be a hypocrite). But the vast majority of Christians don't want anything that messy. They definitely don't want anything that hard. So they make up little formulas, proof text away the nagging Christ in their consciences. They aren't willing to be the ones who simply water, but always have to be the ones to harvest.
Before I get in too much trouble, I don't think everyone who has been suckered into a simplistic view of evangelism is doing wrong. Far from it. But I do think that the trend has suspicious origins and often horrible theology.
Go to bed Frank...
ReplyDelete:-) Who is that now?
ReplyDeleteI actually just finished my service for tomorrow night so I will gladly take that advice.
blessings,
Frank
Hey Ben Meyers has a great series on his blog on the basics of theology. The last entry was on the gospel it is worth reading:
ReplyDeletehttp://faith-theology.blogspot.com/2006/08/theology-for-beginners-3-gospel.html
Actually Ben's blog is always a worthwhile read.
peace,
Frank
The quote makes me think of something I heard Bono saying this past weekend. If we see that someone has had a auto accident, and as we move closer, we smell the distinct aroma of alcohol, we cannot walk away from them saying they deserved it, and we can't expound to them the dangers and illegality of drinking and driving before we help. They need to be saved. This also reminds me of persons who believe that you have to accept everything in the Bible as fact prior to accepting Jesus. People need to be made alive more than they need to be made aware. Jesus can definitely do the first and then he will open their eyes. And in care you are wondering, I am aware that BONO is not the tetragrammaton.
ReplyDeleteI am probably getting ahead of myself, though. We are looking at this like awareness happens first and then, boom, you can make a decision for Christ by saying the sinners prayer. That's perfect crap. The sinner's prayer and making a "decision for Christ" only came into prominence with the revivalist movements, the first of which required people to go through 20 some odd weeks of training afterward and then you were considered a Christian. With the arrival of people like Billy Sunday, the training was chucked. Billy Graham used to do a quasi-extensive follow up but that was put to rest due to time constraints and the availability of volunteers. For a great discussion of the results of this type of evangelism, see McDowell's "The Last Christian Generation." I am not a huge fan of McDowell, but this book synthesizes cultural trends, Barna's research, and the state of the church today, and gives some recommendations for change that, I believe, even the most conservative among us can agree with.
I believe that people have had enough of the law crammed down their throats. When I was in New York 2 weeks ago, we passed by a guy yelling at people, telling them how lost they were, and that they were going to go to hell. As we were passing out bottled water later, a girl asked us why we were doing it. We gave her the card we were giving out with the water and told her that we wanted to let her know that God loved her, and that there was a community of people in the city that wanted to build relationships with people and live the type of life that Christ did. She was blown away because, to her, Christianity was the guy yelling every day. She, they, need to know God loves them. There was contact, there was conversation, and there is a community in place to nurture and grow disciples. These conversations happened on every corner we served each day we were there. Even Big from Sex and the City was caught off guard when I offered him a bottle of water. He didn't take it, but it was kindness offered to strangers.
The author also, in my opinion, is viewing Pauline literature as a condemnation of the lost instead of an exortation to those who believe. We like to say that Paul used certain types of language and methods in evangelizing, but he was talking to the choir most of the time, even if they were only marginal in their belief. The accounts that I see using the law were speaking mostly to Jewish believers and Gentile converts to this new Jewish sect.
I like the last part just because it is refering to the biblical principal of throwing pearls before swine.(Mat7:6) Sharing Christs love for us should be done by bring them to the law so they can be humbled and then brought to the cross. Just telling someone about what Christ has done for us is just like this: A person is sitting on a dock having lunch and someone comes running across the dock and jumping into the water screaming "I LOVE YOU". That doesn't make sence at all so instead of just saying jesus loves and he suffered and died for you, tell them why he did this great supernatural work that he was "Pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities". (Isa 53:5) The wrath, the holy hatered of God that you have been storing up because of your lying and blasphemy(or what ever sins they are doing) has fallen upon the one and only son of God so that you might live. Now turn from your sin repent and live in the narrow way. To those who's hearts are to hard just do your best to show them Gods love but they are not ready for the Gospel so don't give it to them.
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor Intern
Steve, your killing me. I wish you could spend one day with me as I sow the seeds. First of all you ASSUME that using the law with witnessing involves yelling and screaming your going to hell????? Not so my firend. Today a man named Eddie received Christ in the hallway of our church 10 steps after he walked into our building. I used the Law to bring him to the cross, he was happy excited. I didn't judge him, didn't cram it down his throat...I simply asked him a series of questions. As for the sinners prayer...I am not into the sinners prayer. In fact I told Eddie, there are no magic words or prayer that places you on heaven's list, I asked him to pray from his heart. It was the most beautiful prayer. So please...don't put me in the same group as those who scream and yell and tell people they are going to hell. My style does not end with hell...it just is not afriad to ask a question about it! I also passed out water the other day...over 400 bottles of the stuff in about an hour and a half with a group of our church poeple. We gave them a card along with their water too...we bacme the hands of Christ...but if that is all we did...there would just be a whole lot of unthirsty people in our community...there are alos days when we become the mouth of Christ!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
Frank...thanks for the reference! Will definately check it out!
ReplyDeleteStill Way of the Pastor,
Joe
Frank and Steve I have a question for you, Would you consider yourself to be a good person, and if so prove it.
ReplyDeleteway of the pastor
intern
Anonymous what is your name? BTW I'm already saved if that is what you are getting at.
ReplyDeleteThe only claims to goodness I have are the finished work of Christ on my behalf.
Frank
Ok great and I already knew that you are saved. Now my question to you is, How did Jesus evangelize to jews and gentiles? My name is "The Intern".
ReplyDeleteway of the pastor
Intern
You might want to read the gospels, the answer is there. Reading them is a really good thing to do. I'm always amazed at the variety of ways Jesus interacts with folks in the gospels.
ReplyDeleteBTW Intern is not a name, it is a wannabe status. Be who you are man, not a shadow chaser.
You didnt answer my question. The name i gave you is all that you need to know right now.
ReplyDeleteway of the paster
intern
i know what the gospels say.
ReplyDeleteway of the pastor
intern
Frank,
ReplyDeleteI don't think badgering an intern and the reason he calls himself such is the most productive thing you can do with your time! You really like to argue Frank and it is evident. However, when you make a statement about the variety of ways that Jesus evangelized...notice I did not say interact (which is what you used) I think the intern is bringing up the topic of evangelism not interaction...two totally different things, you should provide a scripture a passage, something besides your comments which most of the time have a very negative tone to them! Just some advice from you friendly...
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
Hmmm. Me thinks you construe a negative tone. I'm really a pretty jovial guy. But your "intern" is obviously baiting me which is why I am not inclined to directly answer his "questions".
ReplyDeleteAs for interaction and evangelism I think we can halt the presses a bit. When we isolate evangelism as an event we do then we miss the point. Jesus revealed the Father everywhere he went and to everyone who would look and listen. Thus he was always evangelising. Are we to do less? Are you proposing that evangelism is something we do only when we are say handing out tracts or pestering with the latest formulization of the 'gospel'? When I am helping my neighbour build his fence I am evangelising him just as much as when we sit down over a beer and talk about eternal matters. I am evangelising when I am waiting for my daughter's schoolbus with the rest of the parents and we begin talking about what the day has brought us. It is a way of being, an attitude and most of all a desire to see the Kingdom of God break into the lives of those around me just as it has for me. So I am having trouble seeing the disconnect between interaction and evangelism, evangelism is just a way of interacting and Jesus was our ultimate example.
BTW I am not really that fond of arguing, but I do love a decent debate.
Frank
See you continually bring negativity: "pestering with the latest formulization of the 'gospel'?" Do you see that?
ReplyDeleteThat is called honesty Joe. Maybe it is just offensive because I touched a sacred cow for you, but if we can't think critically about our own ideas then we are living in a dangerous space. One of the reason I visit this particular blog is that I know it will challenge my notions of Christianity. I embrace that because I don't pretend to know it all. If you disagree with that statement then let's hash it out. I especially want my notions of evangelism challenged because I think we can always be doing a better job of reaching people for Christ. So forgive my passion for seeing the lost saved, if I am wrong show me, if I'm just offending you by being right then embrace that. I didn't come here to prance around words or be dishonest about my opinions. I came here to have a discussion and be challenged by a different viewpoint than my own.
ReplyDeleteFair enough. So let's agree to both be open to a being challenged and leave it at that!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
Frank do you know that Jesus and the disciples used the law in evangalism for instance John 4: 16-18 and Romans 3: 9-20. Frank look at those and tell me that speaking to the conscience by useing the law doesn't work becaues it doesn't just work for the Jews. I have used the law in evangalism and the double edged sword is quite sharp and powerful enough to change the hearts of sinners.
ReplyDeleteway of the pastor
intern
John 4:16-18 is part of a much longer evangelistic experience. First of all she was a Samaratin and would have some inkling of her shame already (read the text). Second Jesus is speaking prophetically here, he is pointing out her shame in the most gentle of ways. She came to the well at a time when others would not be there which is your first indication something is up. Read her response, something quite profound has happened here. She has realized that despite Jesus' knowing her shameful state he still shared deeply and profoundly with her (a Samaratin and a woman, and unclean at that). I know this pericope well, it is the one we use to teach on evangelism all the time.
ReplyDeleteBTW Romans is written to the Church and also has a whole context around that. Let's stick to the gospels if you are going to talk about Jesus' evangelism. Have any other examples?
Frank
Ok but you said that he presented her sins in gentile ways and that is how you use the law in evangalism and true every situation calls for a different but the message stays the same. You have to make sure that they can feel your consern for them and the love you are showing them by telling them that they are walking in the way of darkness. If you just go beating them over their head with a bible true they will get offended and not listen to what you are saying. There are times when they aren't taking what you are saying seriously then you just be blunt with them. That is how you use the law in evangalism be cause it speaks to the conscience, the place of right and wrong, and it includes all people because God has given everyone a conscience. That is how you use the law correctly.
ReplyDeleteway of the pastor
intern
But I disagree with the assumption he was using the law in evangelism in this case. certainly he was identifying her need for salvation, but nowhere does the passage say he said she was violating God's law. He only brought up where her own heart was condemning her. My big problem with the law approach, and I admit I've seen some pretty horrid examples of it in use, is that it is all about establishing guilt through reason. Here Jesus shows that he knows her heart and still he welcomes her. There is no recorded change in what we would call her sinful living arrangement, but she does immediately become an evangelist. And she doesn't use the law - she just points them to Jesus. And funny thing is they come out of amazement and become the first real converts (in John anyway) through being with Jesus. So we do agree this is the right way to use the law - but to me that bears little resemblance the the "are you good enough" stuff I've seen.
ReplyDeleteFrank
Frank...are people coming into a relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit using those of us who use the Law?
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
I hope so. I never discounted it as an option, it does have its place in the right context. But what is clear from scripture is that there is no _one_ way of doing things. I know people are coming to relationship with Christ in our context, often through different means. We had one guy recently come to faith through a more traditional (in an American evangelical sense) way and we've seen people come to faith as part of their journey with our community, sans pressure and the use of "gospel" aids. I really do hope that not only are they meeting Jesus but that they are getting discipled as well. That is just as, if not more, important than evangelism. Jesus said go and make disciples not go and preach the four spiritual laws, hand out tracts, or use the 'are you good enough?' approach. All those can be great starting points provided we remember that they are just tools that help clarify the journey towards being a faithful follower of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteFrank
I agree with you about discipleship...I am very clear with poeple I share with a few things:
ReplyDelete1. There is no prayer that will save you.
2. To be a Christ-follower is a daily event not a one time event.
3. The most imporatant thing in the Christian life is not that you know Jesus, but more importantly that He knows you.
4. If you don't have a Bible, get a Bible, read it everyday and obey what you read.
5. Find a church, if not this one, one close by and get connected with "the Body of Christ!" It was not meant for us to live the Christian life alone.
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
But Frank. Remember that some planted and some watered...but it is God who grows. If I meet a stranger on the street or share the gosepl at the Mall on a Friday night. I am not loosing sleep at night at the fact that these people may not enter into a church and register for the first discipleship 101 class they find. I am content with many forms of evangelism which include many different levels of where poeple are at. Sometimes when I share my faith...it is planting seeds. Other times I am simply watering what someone else has watered and people's response is more productive at that point. However, remember that I inform everyone to be in the Word and find a church.
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
I totally agree Joe. For me evangelism is about obedience. Not obedience to a methodology, but obedience to God. So when I am with people I have my ears also tuned to the Spirit of God and love following God's lead. The watering, planting, harvesting teaching of our Lord takes all the pressure off of us as to results. It isn't about who does what, but it is about obedience to the Lord. Where we might differ is that I also believe that when I help a neighbour build a fence, if that is what God told me to do then it is planting a seed regardless of whether we talk about Jesus while doing it. Which brings me back to my comment on evangelism being our interaction with people. BTW I find it rare that Jesus doesn't come up in conversations with my neighbours, especially when we are doing stuff together like building fences.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Frank...is the phrase lifestyle evangelism? However, I think the hard thing for me is this: okay I help my neighbors, I build fences, mow grass... what if the conversation about Jesus never comes up? What if that person dies never knowing anything more than Christians are good fence builders? Christians are nice people?
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
I remember ordering some lifestyle evangelism kits wayyyy back. I am not sure if it is the same thing, nowadays there is talk of creating third spaces which is what we've been doing for quite a while now without the need to name it. Third spaces are spaces where Christians and non-Christians can be together. And you are right, if these spaces never lead to conversation about Jesus (and I don't mean that it programmed in, but rather left out because of fear) then they really aren't any different from the non-Christian spaces. (BTW the spaces are: non-Christian spaces, Christian spaces, third spaces). The solution isn't programming evangelism into these spaces, because that really shifts them to Christian spaces. But rather the issue is with the attitudes that are wrapped around evangelism. First of all using the watering, planting, harvesting metaphor works very well at removing a lot of the anxiety of expectations. Second we do a lot of work teaching people how to hear and respond to God, I think this is Basic Christianity 101, you couple that with a value of obedience and you begin to replace that anxiety with a new sense of expectation based on what God might be up to in a particular interaction. Third we restore the value of story in our community, in fact twice a week we read and explore a gospel text (I mean from the four and we are lectional so that means we hit the tough stuff lots of folks avoid). You know this is working when folks use phrases like, "remember when Jesus healed that leper..." This is the story that is now our story and what do we talk about when we are building fences? Our story. So it is actually really rare that we'll have conversations with folks and not talk about at least what God is doing in our community. Lastly I encourage people to 'blow their covers' early, when we have folks over for gaming they know who we are, they know I'm a pastor (and sometimes I get teased which is half the fun). Keeping secrets about who we creates unhealthy anxiety, it is not like Jesus sent us on a secret mission.
ReplyDeleteActually there is one other thing, we try always to be invitational instead of confrontational. So what if they think Christians are good fence builders - don't underestimate the power of that. The Spirit will remind them of your kindness in their time of need. Maybe your role was uprooting the seeds of distrust towards the Church that the enemy has planted in so many hearts. The key is obedience, Jesus said I do only what I see the Father doing. In some ways we've learned to trust our programmes more than Jesus. There goes that classic hymn in my head, "trust and obey, for there's no other way, to be happy in Jesus, than to trust and obey." I've tried it all, started out at a Street Preacher, tried all the evangelism fads, used tracts and even street theatre, heck I've even gone door-to-door. I think all of these methods have their place, but if they are not rooted in obedience then they amount to just so much thrill-seeking. I'm too old for that kind of thrill seeking, I want to see what happens when our stories cross and Jesus shows up. And having seen that I have to say that it is more satisfying than any adrenaline rush I got from street preaching. (I hope that doesn't sound like I don't love street preachers, I do, at least the ones I know who God has called to that important ministry and do it out of obedience, those folks are awesome).
Well said my friend.
ReplyDeleteBeen away for a few days - Joe, the yelling about the law was referring to the way that many non-Christians view the church, not my sweeping generalization of how everyone presents it. About the guy ten steps inside your church - he was in your church. I am going out on a limb here, but I think that means he was at least willing to be in that environment. Using the law at that point as a kind way of explaining our predicament was perfectly acceptable.
ReplyDeleteWhoever the intern is, I don't know you. And since you (as far as I have read) haven't revealed yourself, I won't answer your question. This is about relationship and community and I don't know any interns.