What a great video, but the Bible does talk about being hot or cold and not lukewarm, so for those that never dare to share their faith, I would say better to do something about evangelism than nothing at all.
So if I am hearing you right Pastor Mark...are you saying that bad evangelism is better than no evangelism? Wow! Is there anymore scripture out there to back up your claim? However, you do bring up a talkable point!
That was great... I loved the holy water... LOL!!!!
No reason to bring a Bible out at all, at least on the first trip. Take a guy paintballing, get him to have some fun, or let your wife take the woman shopping. (I don't know what women do with their time, as I'm a man)
By the way, I would actually go so far to join Mark on this discussion. I think you have to get some historical context to go with those verses. So, here goes... and I'll give you more info later. First, there are two rivers running into the Laodicea. One was warm water, and the other was very cold water. I don't think the writer intended that being cold was bad, or that even being hot was bad. But those were two very good things for this city as getting hot water wasn't like what we have now, nor was cold water. In other words, cold is good, and hot is good... but when you mix those two waters together... Well, that doesn't really do a whole lot. Likewise, going halfway really does not do a whole lot, but I'm not sure those verses are referring to evangelism.
I would really revert to... How did Jesus evangelize? He went to where people were at, and he met them there!
How did Jesus evangelize....hmmm...you've come to the right place Butch! I agree that the verse you used Mark is out of context to build your case...loose the presuposition! Ha!
Well, since you pretty much ended the discussion on my last post about worship, ha. (I still have some thoughts I'll post soon).
I guess I'll say this. You are right to say that the Revelation reference might have been off. Joe, you know you and I have had a million discussions about the subject of evangelism, the bottom line is this...the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. You don't take medicine if you don't think you're sick. You don't put the parachute on if you don't believe the plane is going down. You can't possibly know you need a Savior until you know what you need to be saved from. So, what do we need to be saved from? In short, the wrath and justice of God. Why, because God is holy, and His standards are perfect. We can't live up to it, we've all lied, stolen, lusted, you name it. We've broken all of the Ten Commandments, therefore, we are condemned (the wages of sin is death). We need someone to save us from that condemnation, who's gonna do it...you, me, our parents, our pastor...of course not. It's Jesus, he's the parachute, he's the medicine, He's the Savior.
So, when we evangelize, yes it's important to build relationship with people, but it's paramount to understand the urgency of the matter. Scripture says we're not promised beyond today. So, what if we never took the chance to specifically share the Gospel with someone, and we lose them tragically, what do we do then?
Yeah Mark, I know where you are coming from! You definatley have proved yourself grasshopper concerning the Way of the Master! Hey another way not to evangelize...Dating Evangelism...worse than that would be Blind Date Evangelism!! Or how about Answering Machine Evangelism? Well that one just might work? Gee I just think I had a Jerry McGuire moment! Go figure. That would definatley give a new meaning to "answer" machine!
I'm not calling anyone out on the carpet. Again, trying to say something to someone in a sincere way, is better than not doing anything at all. We invited tons of guys to our EPIC retreat who really didn't know Christ, and they really didn't feel threatened. Some of them... myself included... had a real eye opener that weekend! (Eldridge can do that to ya'.)
Shoving the gospel down anyone's throat isn't going to work... unless you want to reach... say... one in a million.
I forgot that one of the questions on the EPIC series... to John Eldridge was... So how do go about going into battle.. and he joked... but he said, "Take them out for a drink." I love out of the box thinking. So, I would say, didn't Jesus just spend time with these people? Sure he said some remarkable things, and he was sometimes straightforward. I seriously thought about starting some sort of paintball ministry. And you know why? Because God didn't say... "Let evangelism be boring." So, I wouldn't count water boarding out just yet... but you obviously have to do more than just that. In fact, I was going to keep the battle part of the paintball idea. Talk about how relevant it is to the battle that we are now in.
I think the issue isn't bad evangelism... but what the effectiveness is of that evangelism. Most people should have the common sense to know that if you stand on a street corner proclaiming that Christ is king, and that they are all sinners, you probably won't get anyone to listen. I'm waiting for your words of wisdom on the subject.
I am really struggling with evangelism vs deliberate, transparent living. Evalgelize, εαγγελζω, 1) to bring good news, to announce glad tidings
a) used in the OT of any kind of good news
1) of the joyful tidings of God's kindness, in particular, of the Messianic blessings
b) in the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation
c) glad tidings are brought to one, one has glad tidings proclaimed to him
d) to proclaim glad tidings
1) instruct (men) concerning the things that pertain to Christian salvation
But I don't see in this defintion where we HAVE to go and WIN souls. It just has us go proclaim the good news of salvation. It is not our job to save people, that is up the Christ. We just introduce them to each other. Once that takes place, then we can "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations...".
I hope this makes some sense, if not just ignore it. I will probably write more on my site once I figure out how to say what I am thinking about.
"Scripture says we're not promised beyond today." There is the pitfall, when talking about this, of concluding that we'd better go out and tell everyone about it immediately. Naturally none of us would want to do that - but why? I expect that we instinctively know that these things tend to take time and that this would be, if anything, counterproductive.
People don't appreciate being preached at. Encourage people to think about things for themselves.
Telling isn't as effective as showing. Allow the power of the gospel to be reflected in your own life - that will surely be powerful evangelism without saying a word.
There is a place for direct evangelism, but be under no illusion that it is by any means the only way of going about it. I like the approach of seeing the importance of evangelism, but instead of immediately looking to spread the gospel to others - I spread the gospel within myself first and foremost.
"So is there such thing as bad evangelism? If something is better than nothing?" Some evangelism is VERY bad. Plenty of evangelism turns people away from God.
Herbeey, Hey thanks for posting on "Way of the Pastor" You have some good thoughts. However, we are told to "preach" the gospel to every creature...so we cannot get past the fact that we are giving a command to open our mouths and actually say something. Acts 1:8 do not worry about what you are to "say" and then we are told that the Holy Spirit will intercede in the moment. I do think that they way I live my life in front of others backs up the words that I say...however, is evangelism just for those who know me? Can I not effectively share the good news to a complete stranger? You lost me with your comments at the end of your post! Some evangelism is VERY bad. Plenty of evangelism turns people away from God???
What a great video, but the Bible does talk about being hot or cold and not lukewarm, so for those that never dare to share their faith, I would say better to do something about evangelism than nothing at all.
ReplyDeleteSo if I am hearing you right Pastor Mark...are you saying that bad evangelism is better than no evangelism? Wow! Is there anymore scripture out there to back up your claim? However, you do bring up a talkable point!
ReplyDeleteBring it...
Pastor Joe
I would never encourage going evangelism linebacker or anything. So to clarify, I would say be bold but gentle, no need to bible beat somebody down.
ReplyDeleteYeah I gotcha Mark...so what are some more "not to do's" when sharing your faith? This could be fun!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe Drew
That was great... I loved the holy water... LOL!!!!
ReplyDeleteNo reason to bring a Bible out at all, at least on the first trip. Take a guy paintballing, get him to have some fun, or let your wife take the woman shopping. (I don't know what women do with their time, as I'm a man)
By the way, I would actually go so far to join Mark on this discussion. I think you have to get some historical context to go with those verses. So, here goes... and I'll give you more info later. First, there are two rivers running into the Laodicea. One was warm water, and the other was very cold water. I don't think the writer intended that being cold was bad, or that even being hot was bad. But those were two very good things for this city as getting hot water wasn't like what we have now, nor was cold water. In other words, cold is good, and hot is good... but when you mix those two waters together... Well, that doesn't really do a whole lot. Likewise, going halfway really does not do a whole lot, but I'm not sure those verses are referring to evangelism.
I would really revert to... How did Jesus evangelize? He went to where people were at, and he met them there!
How did Jesus evangelize....hmmm...you've come to the right place Butch! I agree that the verse you used Mark is out of context to build your case...loose the presuposition! Ha!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
Well, since you pretty much ended the discussion on my last post about worship, ha. (I still have some thoughts I'll post soon).
ReplyDeleteI guess I'll say this. You are right to say that the Revelation reference might have been off. Joe, you know you and I have had a million discussions about the subject of evangelism, the bottom line is this...the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. You don't take medicine if you don't think you're sick. You don't put the parachute on if you don't believe the plane is going down. You can't possibly know you need a Savior until you know what you need to be saved from. So, what do we need to be saved from? In short, the wrath and justice of God. Why, because God is holy, and His standards are perfect. We can't live up to it, we've all lied, stolen, lusted, you name it. We've broken all of the Ten Commandments, therefore, we are condemned (the wages of sin is death). We need someone to save us from that condemnation, who's gonna do it...you, me, our parents, our pastor...of course not. It's Jesus, he's the parachute, he's the medicine, He's the Savior.
So, when we evangelize, yes it's important to build relationship with people, but it's paramount to understand the urgency of the matter. Scripture says we're not promised beyond today. So, what if we never took the chance to specifically share the Gospel with someone, and we lose them tragically, what do we do then?
On a lighter note...ways not to evangelize...shock treatment.
ReplyDeletewaterboarding.
playing 'deal or no deal.'
Probably not the most effective methods.
Yeah Mark, I know where you are coming from! You definatley have proved yourself grasshopper concerning the Way of the Master! Hey another way not to evangelize...Dating Evangelism...worse than that would be Blind Date Evangelism!! Or how about Answering Machine Evangelism? Well that one just might work? Gee I just think I had a Jerry McGuire moment! Go figure. That would definatley give a new meaning to "answer" machine!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe Drew
I'm not calling anyone out on the carpet. Again, trying to say something to someone in a sincere way, is better than not doing anything at all. We invited tons of guys to our EPIC retreat who really didn't know Christ, and they really didn't feel threatened. Some of them... myself included... had a real eye opener that weekend! (Eldridge can do that to ya'.)
ReplyDeleteShoving the gospel down anyone's throat isn't going to work... unless you want to reach... say... one in a million.
I forgot that one of the questions on the EPIC series... to John Eldridge was... So how do go about going into battle.. and he joked... but he said, "Take them out for a drink." I love out of the box thinking. So, I would say, didn't Jesus just spend time with these people? Sure he said some remarkable things, and he was sometimes straightforward. I seriously thought about starting some sort of paintball ministry. And you know why? Because God didn't say... "Let evangelism be boring." So, I wouldn't count water boarding out just yet... but you obviously have to do more than just that. In fact, I was going to keep the battle part of the paintball idea. Talk about how relevant it is to the battle that we are now in.
ReplyDeleteSo is there such thing as bad evangelism? If something is better than nothing?
ReplyDeleteAdding a log to the blog fire...
Way of the Pastor,
Joe Drew
I think the issue isn't bad evangelism... but what the effectiveness is of that evangelism. Most people should have the common sense to know that if you stand on a street corner proclaiming that Christ is king, and that they are all sinners, you probably won't get anyone to listen. I'm waiting for your words of wisdom on the subject.
ReplyDeleteI am really struggling with evangelism vs deliberate, transparent living. Evalgelize, εαγγελζω, 1) to bring good news, to announce glad tidings
ReplyDeletea) used in the OT of any kind of good news
1) of the joyful tidings of God's kindness, in particular, of the Messianic blessings
b) in the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation
c) glad tidings are brought to one, one has glad tidings proclaimed to him
d) to proclaim glad tidings
1) instruct (men) concerning the things that pertain to Christian salvation
But I don't see in this defintion where we HAVE to go and WIN souls. It just has us go proclaim the good news of salvation. It is not our job to save people, that is up the Christ. We just introduce them to each other. Once that takes place, then we can "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations...".
I hope this makes some sense, if not just ignore it. I will probably write more on my site once I figure out how to say what I am thinking about.
"Scripture says we're not promised beyond today."
ReplyDeleteThere is the pitfall, when talking about this, of concluding that we'd better go out and tell everyone about it immediately. Naturally none of us would want to do that - but why? I expect that we instinctively know that these things tend to take time and that this would be, if anything, counterproductive.
People don't appreciate being preached at. Encourage people to think about things for themselves.
Telling isn't as effective as showing. Allow the power of the gospel to be reflected in your own life - that will surely be powerful evangelism without saying a word.
There is a place for direct evangelism, but be under no illusion that it is by any means the only way of going about it. I like the approach of seeing the importance of evangelism, but instead of immediately looking to spread the gospel to others - I spread the gospel within myself first and foremost.
"So is there such thing as bad evangelism? If something is better than nothing?"
Some evangelism is VERY bad. Plenty of evangelism turns people away from God.
Herbeey,
ReplyDeleteHey thanks for posting on "Way of the Pastor" You have some good thoughts. However, we are told to "preach" the gospel to every creature...so we cannot get past the fact that we are giving a command to open our mouths and actually say something. Acts 1:8 do not worry about what you are to "say" and then we are told that the Holy Spirit will intercede in the moment. I do think that they way I live my life in front of others backs up the words that I say...however, is evangelism just for those who know me? Can I not effectively share the good news to a complete stranger? You lost me with your comments at the end of your post! Some evangelism is VERY bad. Plenty of evangelism turns people away from God???
Way of the Pastor,
Joe Drew