Way of the Master Radio aired an interview of Brian McLaren, exposing some of the beliefs and theologies from Brian McLaren and the Emergent Church. I've read some of Brian's books, however, have never accepted some of the ideas that stem from his writitngs! I would encourage anyone out there to be a "Good Berean" (Acts 17:10-12) and examine Brian McLaren under scripture as you listen to the April 20th Way of the Master Radio program...and feel free to comment! http://www.wotmradio.com/page/6/ you may have to scroll back to previous posts as this link will be moved back a day, everyday! Remember your looking for April 20th!
Newly added to this post...A very confused Brian McLaren describes a very confused understanding of Kingdom Theology. We visit the Land of Os and the Land of Confusion: Dr. Os Guinness comments on Brian McLaren. April 27th 2006 http://www.wotmradio.com/ Have fun with this one fellas!
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
Pod boy is Todd Friel with Way of the Master. Here is the thing...what did "Jesus" say about hell? I highly doubt that Jesus would want us to evolve our ideas about hell and eternal punishment that are clearly stated in scripture, to a certain culture or society, so we don't offend them...Jesus offended many, as he loved many! But He never substituted water for the gospel...the good news is not "Your going to Hell" however, one must first understand that they are not good and that they have violated their conscience and the Law and therefore are in need of a Savior because God has already appointed a day in which he will judge the world through Righteousness, which is His standard, the Law, which was given to show us that we cannot live it by ourselves, which then leads us to grace- we broke the Law and Jesus paid our fine...that's the good news, which is not the message from Brian or the emerging church- as far as I have read and sen for myself (which can be quite limited I admit) but the good news will always be the same and Jesus gave us an example of telling others how to get receive eternal life...and if He (the Master Evangelizer) gave us a consistant model every time he encountered individuals, then should we go by What Jesus did...or by what keeps our friends liking us? I'm more concerned that others have a relationship with God...not me!
ReplyDeleteLet the games begin!
Way of the Pastor
Joe
The danger that I see with the emerging movement is the blurring of lines when it comes to absolute truths.
ReplyDeleteI've read "A New Kind of Christian" by Brian McClaren as well as "the emerging church" by Dan Kimball. I was definitely challenged by the arguments that both made. However, after time of evaluation, my observation is that if our theology continues to evolve, where does it end? What is right and wrong today, may not be right and wrong tomorrow?
Now, don't get me wrong the traditional church has gotten many things wrong over the years, nobody will dispute that, but the words of Jesus and the remainder of scripture cannot be discounted or watered down.
At some point the interpretation has to lead somewhere.
DJ Baldy
Nice side step Steve, didn't know you knew how to dance!!!
ReplyDeleteOnce again (as I posted before...) here is the Good News!
"One must first understand that they are not good and that they have violated their conscience and the Law and therefore are in need of a Savior because God has already appointed a day in which he will judge the world through Righteousness, which is His standard, the Law, which was given to show us that we cannot live it by ourselves, which then leads us to grace- we broke the Law and Jesus paid our fine...that's the good news."
And if that is not right...what was the significance of the cross? That is where this discussion needs to go and what is most important!
Papa Loves Mambo,
Joe
I'm not going to side step the subject...I'm just going to do a little two-step. I would feel bad about it but Joe did it on my blog so I'm just returning the favor! :-)
ReplyDeleteFirst of all: The Podcast: Along with what I have gathered from the various comments with the actual podcast summary, I have chosen to find a foul tempered mule to kick me in the kidneys in place of listening to an hour of a 1st Amendment manifestation that I would either be sadden, angered, or bored by. If I can't find a mule, does a donkey suffice?
I have a respect & regard for Brian McLaren. Do I agree with everything he says & does? No, I do not. But the same can be said about everyone I hold in high regard. From the books I have read of his and from the conversations I have had with a friend that currently has him as a professor in his D-Min Program, I find BM to be a man after God's own heart and a man that is truly passionate about helping people discover & become the person God created them to be. Is his style of evangelism my style? Maybe. Maybe not. Because, although I didn't listen to the podcast (I am quite familiar with Ray Comfort and his style...loved his book I read way back in Room 205), I do think this is not an issue of doctrine, but an issue of style.
Now, I disagree with the following statement made by Joe:
" ... He (the Master Evangelizer) gave us a consistent model every time he encountered individuals, then should we go by What Jesus did...or by what keeps our friends liking us? I'm more concerned that others have a relationship with God...not me!"
Jesus never had a consistent model. His message was consistent; but his method or his model was always different...sometimes downright confusing the hell out of his friends & foes alike (no pun intended).
Jesus, when asked about whether or not they should stop an individual from healing & driving out demons thru the authority of the name of Christ, said "Whoever is not against us is for us." Mark 9.
Ray Comfort's approach to evangelism is definitely the approach I ever use. But you will never hear me criticize him for doing what he is doing for the Kingdom of God...perhaps criticism for his podcasts and silly accent but not about his boldness to speak truth into people's lives. Neither will you ever hear me criticize McLaren for doing what he is doing for the Kingdom of God...perhaps criticism for the fact that he is a little long-winded in his talks but not about his grace to speak love into people's lives.
Finally, I will be in danger of sounding cheesy; but truth is not found in absolute statements. Truth is found in a person...and since we've talked a lot about different people, I will go ahead & be Captain Obvious and say that person is Jesus of Nazareth, the one known as the Christ.
Two-Stepping even with 2 Left Feet, a Red Strip in hand, and Southpark playing in the background.
Neil
P.S. -- A great read is FINDING COMMON GROUND by Tim Downs http://product.half.ebay.com/Finding-Common-Ground_W0QQtgZinfoQQprZ1623657
ReplyDeleteTim's question is with all the ministries training people to harvest the fields...is there anyone out there planting seeds for a future harvest?
Once again, I will say it...great stuff!
**Joe applauds...nice, didn't know you knew the tango! This is great guys...never thought we would be communicating so much with eachother. Please do not misunderstand anything I say as I will do the same with your posts! I love the heck out of you guys! I love the fact that we can discuss. I also like being able to disagree! We are all in different areas of our lives and that is amazing by itself... along with 3 guys who continue to keep their eyes on Jesus Christ and for that I appreciate you two! Neil, I think you hit the nail on the head...it maybe a difference in style. However, I am not 100% convinced of that, and maybe never will be. I admit I am just learning about some of the emerging stuff! Challenging...much, overwhelming, heck yes! I don't understand everything its about nor do I understand everything you and steve talk about? These discussions do take me back to the days in the woods over fires with heavy discussion arises out of a good old DPS meeting of which Steve was part of quite a few times. Just wanting to let you both know that! This has been great discussion! May it continue or may it cease...DPS forever boys! Okay, that last line was cheesy!
ReplyDeleteI leave you with the words of Men Without Hats "you can dance if oyu want to, you can leave your friends behind, but if your friends, don't dance and if they don't dance they're no friends of mine!"
Still Way of the Pastor
Joe
Hi all,
ReplyDeleteIt is perhaps dangerous to try to say this in 5 minutes, but I will anyway because that's what I have.
What concerned me most was when Brian characterized the substitionary atonement of Christ as "a person forgiving his son and then kicking the dog to get his anger out." Whatever hell is, it is clear that Jesus taught that there would be some type of suffering for some duration of time. It is also clear that Jesus did receive our Gehenna, and it actually pleased the Father to pour out His wrath on Jesus instead of believers. Basically, by saying what he said, Brian has blasphemed what God actually did, and has cheapened the suffering that Christ paid on our behalf. I don't know if he reallized the implications of what he said, but that was disturbing. (Yes, I know the cross is more than substitutionary atonement, but that is one of the fassets of it.)
I'm all for questioning things, but if you are going to be a church leader, you need to understand the essential doctrines and be able to defend them or expect to be corrected by those who do.
By the way, Todd does assume too much agreement from his audience doesn't he. I mean, a lot of times he doesn't explain how scripture supports what he's saying as opposed to the person he's criticizing. When that happens his show pretty much comes off as a bashing session.
-Ben
Wow...I have so much to say right now! Just wondering how allthis should be done? Like Todd said it would be "Emergants" will spend a lot of time telling you everything that is wrong...and never telling you what is right! Go ahead...scroll down this whole discussion...I have yet to hear from an "emergant" what they actually believe in? What their core beliefs are? I've just heard that podboy and I are mistaken, along with the whole prtestant, orthodox church and we obviously don't interperet scripture as well as Brian McLaren! So come on guys! In the name of good debate and discussion...throw us a bone! What the heck is it that you claim to have as "Emergants" as core truth? What do you hang your hat on? Prove me wrong and show me that "Emergants" are more than spiritual agnostics?"
ReplyDeleteIn the footsteps of the Master Evangelizer (examine the scriptures on that Neil) please don't make me do it for ya!
Continually the Way of the Pastor
Joe
I have added a new portion to this post so make sure to read the original posted comment that got all this discussion started! One of my favorite authors Dr. Os Guinness has chimed in with his $0.02 on Brian McLaren's views!
ReplyDeleteAnd you thought your weekend was going to be boring!
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
I should drop some text support since I just observed that it can sound like pointless bashing if we aren't trying to correct with scripture (or point out where a false teacher is scripturally wrong, so others can be insulated against their false teachings).
ReplyDeleteFor Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18)
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Hebrews 9:27-28)
He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of My people He was stricken. And He put His grave with the wicked, and with a rich one in His death; although He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased Jehovah to crush Him; to grieve Him; that He should put forth His soul as a guilt-offering. He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in His hand. (Isaiah 53:8-10)
For the overseer must be ... holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
(Tit 1:7,9)
By the way,
ReplyDeleteI said "comes off as bashing." If you listen to the second podcast, I think Todd's heart comes out so much more clearly. We can't actaully know a person's heart so I'll phrase it this way: Sometimes it doesn't come through clearly, but Todd seems to truly have a heart for those who are enslaved to lies.
-Ben
Joe, check this post by McLaren and Campolo.
ReplyDeletehttp://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/05/brian_mclarens.html