So this last week I went to go see a friend of mine in a singing group lead worship at a revival that was being put on by a local penticostal church. Music was upbeat...fine, the congregation was into the worship...as was I, however when the lead singer of the group kept preaching inbetween songs...I was dissapointed, not that the guy was preaching, but what they guy was preaching. Now I have a lot of tolerance...but everyone has their limit. The guy was drawing a line between pentecostal churches and "nominal" non-pentecostal churches. Churches that "had the spirit" in his opinion and churches that did not. He went on to say that the worship in these nominal churches was considered "witchcraft" as they have to keep conguring up the spirit. He then went on to say that he was glad to be in a church, "where the spirit was already here!" Then they went into encouraging everyone..."everyone" to begin to pray in tongues and worship in tongues! I had never hearrd of worshipping in tongues...that was new to me! However, just wondering if any of you have seen such a line drawn from your pentecostal churches in your area? I listed a couple key doctrines off of this churches website which I will remain nameless at this time.
WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]
WE BELIEVE... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.
So is this false doctrine? Bad Theology? How do you intereact with a person who thinks you are powerless without the spirit and your worship is witchcraft? If tongues is a spiritual gift how should we use it today: personally and congregationally? Does scriptures really say that the only phisical evidence of the Holy Spirit is tongues? Didn't Jesus say baptize in the name of the Father Son and the Holy Spirit? So why baptize twice in the Spirit? Should the Spirit be excluded from the trinitarian instruction of baptism? Have fun with this one this weekend! See ya'll on Monday!
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
Okay fine. I don't have any wonderful insiteful things to say. But since no one else is talking, here's a couple opinions.
ReplyDelete1) We receive the Holy Spirit at conversion.
2) There is a fullness of Spirit that is attainable beyond the initial deposit. The Holy Spirit is who He is, so it would probably be most accurate to understand this as the Holy Spirit being more active and powerful in a given person's life at a given time (hopefully all the time).
3) Now concerning speaking in tongues as evidence of Spirit baptism. I'm only going to observe that there is no scripture that states this directly. In fact there is no scripture that indicates that anyone knew they were supposed to speak in tongues when they recieved the Holy Spirit. In fact the only place in scripture that I know of where it talks about who should speak in tongues says that not every Spiritually gifted person speaks in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:29,30)
4) The theology of Holy Spirit baptism always being tied to speaking in tongues has so much in common with legalism that I don't think it could be anything else. It divides the church over inessential doctrine. It speaks concretely with no room for disagreement, where scripture does not speak difinitively. And at it's worst, folks say you aren't even be saved if you don't speak in tongues, and boy that's dangerous for so many reasons. (False assurance to people who speak in tongues. False lack of assurance to those who don't. Potential judgement for adding to the requirements of the Gospel. A heretic is literally a person who divides the church over inessential, manmade, or false doctrines, so then the Bible warns that such a person is self condemned (Titus 3:11). Nothing to sneeze at there.)
Come on, Joe. You know a real stinker when you smell one. All the witchcraft crap, the us and them theology, looking down down on somebody because "we got something you don't." But it does give me an idea for a novel about this guy who drives around the countryside with his 12 buddies and puts on magic shows, but Dick Cheney has the CIA take him out Che Guevara style because his approval rating is higher than the president's. Then I'll start a cult around it called the Neo-Mormon Superstars. And if you can't pull a rabbit out of a hat, you are on the outside. If you'll give me the name and number of the guy who was using the name of Jesus to propagate all that nonsense, I'll recruit him to be my number 2 man, because it's all propaganda that certain individuals use to look down on others. I will now step down from the soap box.
ReplyDeletesteve
Not sure of the guys name...but if it is any help, he looked like Phil Hartman with Al Pacino hair? Yeah I don't know what it is with the pentecostal movement and bad hair?
ReplyDelete**Setting down my paper cup of kool-aid
Joe
I hate spiritual elitism and as a former Pentecostal minister I've seen my fair share of it. I also don't like hype. That worship leader was way out of line BTW.
ReplyDeleteAs for the theology, it is poor at best. You have to understand the roots of pentecostalism. It started seperately on both coasts in poor black communities amongst very experiential Christians. So it has taken quite a while for the movement to start developing any real theological depth. Now to compound the issue there is also a suspicion of higher learning that has become part of the pentecostal culture, it hasn't helped much. Thankfully there are bright spots in the movement and to be fair I owe much of my passionate spirituality to my pentecostal heritage.
The emphasis on tongues really hasn't done the movement any favours. It is based on poor exegetical practices. I'm not against worshipping in tongues and have been in some beautiful services when a spontaneous song in tongues has broken out and it has been a holy experience, but when it is invoked on demand I am left wondering who is practicing the witchcraft. Then again as a Vineyard pastor we have never been fond of focusing on the manifestations, especially trying to explain or validate them with sloppy bible work.
Good to hear from you again One for Freedom. So your a Vineyard Pastor? Nice! Hey just wondering...so please help me understand...you talk about worshipping in tongues??? I'm not downing your experience just wondering of its background? I may have missed that one in scripture? Was wondering if you could show a basis or a biblical purpose for it? Let me know, brother man!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
Sorry...I called you One for Freedom when you are One of Freedom.
ReplyDeleteNo problem. I'm Frank BTW. One of the things that does a dishonour to scripture is trying to use it to back up spiritual manifestations. There are soem wacky things in the bible (talking Asses comes to mind) but not everything that happens in a worship/ecclesial setting is explicitely in the bible. So if you are looking for a biblical mandate it isn't there. But it is a spiritual practice that occurs within Pentecostal/Charismatic worship. The Pentecostals, unfortunately, elevated the gift of tongues and brought it into worship in a way I suspect was not common prior to Asuzu. And it can be quite wonderful to experience, almost as much as it can be not so wonderful when the gift is overused or expected or worse provoked. The situations that struck me as most beautiful involved a lull in the music that led to a few scattered people singing a song in unison that seemed to not be in a discernable language. One of the times I was caught up in singing the song quite spontaneously. At the same time there was a strong sense of God's holy presence in the room. I would testify that experientially it was a God experience and one that gave me a hunger for God's imminant presence. It also was part of what led my non-Christian friend, who came with me, to give his heart to Jesus that night.
ReplyDeleteI wrote a message recently that you might be interested in (darn the site is down, I'll post a link later) talking about the danger of becoming a junkee for these experiences and never letting them do the work they were intended to do. I don't advocate persuing wacky experiences in worship, if they happen great, but they aren't the heart of worship - Jesus alone has that honour.
They aren't the heart of worship - Jesus alone has that honour.
ReplyDeleteFantastic! (I actaully advocate persuing experience with God, but moreso as a heartfelt desire to know more of the One we love than as a type of spiritual thrill seeking.)
Here is the URL:
ReplyDeletehttp://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomvineyard/message/418
enjoy,
Frank
Well...all I can say is that Paul refered to tongues as the least of the gifts and called for us to desire the gifts at the top of the list...its just that there is something very wrong about our common day use of tongues! More on tongues later! Maybe Thursday...
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
Joe, you have to take Corinthians in context. That church was pretty screwed up. And to boot they were using the gifts a sort of spiritual badges of elitism. So all that Paul says is with this in the back of his mind. The unfortunate thing is I bet he would say the same thing to a lot of the excesses of "spiritual affections" in the church today (not just tongues which is really such a minor issue). In our church if someone speaks publically in tongues (meaning they do so in a way that others can distinctly make out that they are talking in tongues) we ask for and wait on an interpretation. Funny, it has only happened once and there was no interpretation after a little while, but later on there was an interpretation of the event that made sense and that was our only instance.
ReplyDeleteNow sometimes when I am at a loss how to pray into a situation I will pray quietly under my breath in tongues. But I don't usually tell people that because of my experiences where people had to show how "spiritual" they were by praying in tongues. Heck it took a while for the Pavlovian tongues praying when someone prayed for to break off when I left the Pentecostal church - BTW it took someone just gently saying "just recieve Frank." Did me a world of good. I don't think railing against tongues is the answer it just entrenches the pre-conditioned. But modelling a more natural supernatural faith is an appropriate response. We do a lot of teaching on the diversity of God's interaction with us as unique people.
BTW when I train up people to pray for others I also caution them to not be overly loud with tongues, if that is what they feel led to do, even to ask the person if they mind you praying for them in tongues. We do the same respectful thing with laying on hands, we ask first.
One final thing, at one point in my whole struggle with the appropriate use of tongues, not that I imagine I have it right. At one point I had to just surreder it to God, if God tells me to speak in tongues in a situation I will. But since deciding that I've never been in a situation where God has told me to speak outloud in tongues where there were folks from non-tongue talking traditions. And even at that the instances are very few.
Well let me just say this...as I believe in the indwelling and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, I do not believe that tongues is "the" manifestation of the infilling, it is simply "a" manifestation of the Holy Spirit. If you as a believer never speak in tongues, that does not mean that you do not have the Spirit...or if you do speak in tongues, that does not mean that you have more of the Spirit than the one that does not. Remember that there are many parts of the body of Christ, and it is Christ who gives the gifts to this body. The eye can't say that the hand is not part of the body because the hand cannot see! Thats foolishness! However, I will say this why do we see tongues implemented in some movements/denomonations and not others? Once again, God gives certain gifts to certain parts of the body! He is not going to manifest himself in the same whay in every church! Well just my stance on the whole tongues issue...not really answering anyones post.
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
Joe, I agree with you. I think tongues as a spiritual benchmark creates a spirituality of levels and elitism. This has nothing to do with the gospel Paul proclaims where there is no slave, no free, no male, no female, etc. But all are equal at the foot of the Cross. I've heard people actually tell me that speaking in tongues means they are closer to God than other Christians - I wonder if it is God they are really closer too. This kind of arrogance is counter to the gospel. If anyone could claim superiority over others it was Jesus, yet his example was to become a servant to us all.
ReplyDeleteAlso biblically it is shaky to claim any particular manifestation as "the" evidence of the Spirit's presence. It just isn't in there. Acts records a variety of reactions to God showing up. The gospels are devoid of tongues with the exception of a gloss in Mark that is an imperative regarding the expression of the Church in the world (not a blanket statement of things we _all_ do, otherwise we better break out the snakes in our services!).
Most post-pentecostal traditions take a similar stance to yours. I actually believe that we are given the Spirit when we are brought into the body of Christ (through accepting Jesus) and that we can experience continual moments of refreshing and personal renewal, intimate times with the Spirit. But that is a particular view I hold when I read the scriptures. I am likely prone to reacting against tongues as "the" evidence because of experiencing the elitism this brings.
It wouldn't be the first time that folks in the church divided over spiritual gifting. I've heard some say if you don't evangelize a certain way, then you aren't saved. So then what the people who have a gifting for a certain type of evangelism wind up in the same church.
ReplyDeleteOr folks without some of the flashier Spiritual gifts many times will reject all the other spiritual gifts as counterfit, and so we have churches where no supernatural gifting is acknowledged.
Is it possible, that Satan has deceived the folks with the gift of tongue speaking into dividing out from the rest of the church? You betcha - just like he's convinced many believers to divide over other inessential and disputable issues. It is truly sad.
On top of division caused by a wrong view of real Spiritual gifts, there are also counterfit giftings. Is there a counterfit gift of tongues? You betcha, just like there is a counterfit Apostolic gifting, gift of teaching, gift of healing, and so on. For every real gift there would seem to be a corresponding counterfit. Marvel not! The devil's servants mascarade as servants of righteousness just like the Devil himself comes to us disguised as an angel of the light.
I don't speak in tongues. But I also think that some truly do, but that others have a counterfit gift. Some even have a counterfit holy spirit. A counterfit holy spirit, how can it be? Can the devil give us neat experiences? Sure can. The other world religions don't lack in that department. The only way we can discern is by knowing that the Devil does not speak the truth. (Although he will go so far as to employ some or even a lot of truth. Any good counterfit must resemble the real deal.)
Anyone want to pray with me for discernment?
Ben I've heard the counterfit tongues bit before, usually from folks obsessed about it. When fear is the motivator no good comes from the situation. Do folks fake gifts/affections - no doubt they do. But what does that mean we should do about it? Well this is where it gets interesting. If we go on a witchhunt then we just alienate folks from the Church, at best we humiliate folks needlessly and for what - yet another form of spiritual elitism. I have a hard time finding Christ in that.
ReplyDeleteBut the balance isn't to just let folks act chaotically in our services either. That just fosters elitism on the other end and actually compounds the problem by making the service an attention seekers paradise.
I opt for a middle way. Mediate the experience by assuring the congregation that sometimes when God shows up odd things do happen. Then help that person along. Come along side and ask what the Spirit is doing. Pray into it. If they are just trying to get attention they won't want that kind of scrutiny and will back off. It also sends a message to the congregation that you take these things seriously and want to foster what God is actually doing in your midst. Remember the biblical imperative from Paul is not to quench the Spirit, I think we quench by excluding particular manifestations as well as by promoting grandstanding.
So I have little use for folks looking for demons behind tongues or concerned that the Church is being decieved by false tongues. (offices are a different story BTW) I always remember that God's ability to lead is far greater than Satan's ability to decieve. And when opportunities like this arise in our midst we get right in there and look for the Spirit of God. This puts the enemy to flight every time.
A great book on the subject, that deals with the psychology of manifestions in particular, is John White's When the Spirit Comes with Power. I highly recommend it.
I think you maybe misunderstood where I am coming from. And I don't think we are far apart.
ReplyDeleteI'm not arguing for fear. I'm arguing for Faith. I'm arguing for trusting God to guide us. Your idea about praying through the experience sounds like good advice to me.
I'm not arguing for repression, I am arguing for discernment (and it seems that many times this is up to the individual(s) who is(are) having the experience). John tells us to test the Spirits (1 John 4:1). While some folks know they are faking, other folks may not reallize that this gift can be counterfitted by devils. They may get a false sense of assurance that they are saved, which is a big concern of mine. A person who doesn't know to test the spirits may accept the doctrine of a lying spirit based on a false wonder. So I point out that there is a counterfit gift. I don't say it is usually counterfit. I don't say it is usually true. I don't want to have a bias in either direction that can wreck what God wants to do or let the devil pray on my ignorance. So we ought to encourage all of our brethren to be discerning in all things. In shorth: I don't want to quench the Spirit, but to be careful to test the spirits.
So God takes the lead, He says to discern all things. He says to test the Spirits. If we refuse to be lead by God, then we are left in the hands of Satan's power to deceive.
So now Mr. "I hate all eliticism," why do you act like an elite by saying, "I have little use for folks looking for demons behind tongues." I'm not looking for demons but rather the Spirit, yet sometimes I am disappointed to find the work of the devil. Let's not pretend he can't do it. That only gives Him room to work. Why not teach everyone to discern away the counterfit so that only the true is left?
Mr. "I hate all eliticism" although I won't win any votes with you based on your previous comments, I still recommend checking out Hank Hanegraaff's book Counterfiet Revival! I will be posting from it soon! I would be interested on your thoughts about what he discusses about the Vinyard~!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
Ben,
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean that to say I was above demon hunters, just that I have little patience for those operating out of a paradigm of fear. I think we aren't that far apart, but I do not think there is much value in focusing on the negative. The devil loves attention and doesn't stick around when there is no audience. Now demonization is a different issue but let's save that for another throw down.
Joe,
I haven't read that one by Hank, but I don't have a lot of respect for Hank. Firstly he took our denomination to task based on a lot of heresay. Second he made an association with the Vineyard to Lonnie Frisbee that is ironic coming from a Calvary Chapel person (Lonnie is at the roots of their movement too - pays to know your history). Lonnie was used by God in both movements (Calvary and Vineyard and actually others) but was not able to deal well with being confronted with his practice of homosexuality. BTW Wimber was one of the ones that confronted Lonnie (Lonnie preached against homosexuality yet practiced it). Lonnies story is one that is worth reading, there is a good tribute at the end of "Quest for the Radical Middle" as well as the Vineyard response to Hank's criticisms. Also this stuff is available on the www.vineyard.com website.
I think some of the criticisms of revivalism are fair and need to be weighed. The Vineyard has been fairly good at receiving even words from heresy hunters like Hank and testing our practices. We've had lots of opportunities to walk this out as a movement. I came into the movement rather late, maybe about 15 years ago, and all I knew was that I finally found home. I don't think it is perfect, but it sure does fit my personality and what God has called me to.
One other thing to keep in mind is that the Vineyard comes out of the Calvary Chapel, and it wasn't the cleanest of breaks. We've done a lot to try and mend those connections and God has been gracious. I personally sought out the Calvary Chapel pastor here and we have become great friends. He said something interesting to me one day. He said he was here to remind me to keep God's Word central to what we do (which we are eager to do) and that I was here to encourage him to keep the Spirit in the midst of what he does. He told me that Chuck Smith recently told his denomination that what began in the Spirit must not end in the flesh and expressed regret at the split between our movements. God is good eh. I wonder what old Hank things of that.
Frank
If attention works in the Devil's favor, why does he come disguised as an Angel of the light. Again, I think we are close, but I want to come back in humbleness of Spirit. We are told to resist the devil, and draw near to God. How can we resist the Devil if we are not aware of what he is doing? I submit to you that what He truly hates is to have his work exposed, because in the light of truth even his darkest works are overcome.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I'm not saying let's live in terror of the Devil. Christ has overcome Him and we are in Christ. We don't need to fear the Devil, but when we are aware of what he is doing and resist him, then he has no power over us. The Devil's greatest weapons are ignorance and deception because he has no real power except to manipulate us. No believer is willingly going to work along side the Devil, and so when his work is revealed it is over.
Perhaps where you are coming from is the understanding that it is dangerous to think of the Devil as powerful. He does love that. But when the Devil's powerlessness is taught and his work is properly discerned, then the Devil will flee.
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
(1Pe 5:8-10)
Frank, wow I totally do not get or agree with your thought process concerning the Bible and our experience in worship. For real, your grabbing for straws! You tell me there is no sscripture text for worshipping in tongues! I tell you to be careful my fiend! When your experience or anyone elses experience contradicts the Biblical standard, then you have crossed a line! There is no support for worshipping in tongues, simply because...are you ready...it doesn't exist! In the words of Todd Friel ...WOWZA! Must we make things so difficult!
ReplyDeleteA light in a dark and demented world,
Joe
Joe, there was no scriptural text for the Pentecostal outpouring before it happened. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. The bible is all true but not all truth is in the bible. The bible is a book, Jesus is the only complete and living Word containing all truth. You are the one crossing the line by telling me that what I experienced was not God - how could you know that? Just because you need it spelled out somewhere? Microwave ovens aren't in the bible either - do you use one?
ReplyDeleteWow...please stand by for technical difficulty. Anyone want to jump in on this one? I don't want to have all the fun!
ReplyDeleteJust catching my breath,
Joe
"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke. "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
ReplyDelete(Joel 2:28-32)
Even though Joel says nothing of tongues Peter understand speaking in languages to be a visual fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, but Joel doesn't atctually say anything about tongues. But Peter was correct in assessing that God was pouring out His Spirit on all who believe.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Bible doesn't actually say God will only manfest Himself in this way or that way, but we do need to be very careful how we seek Him and be very careful to test the Spirits. For example, if we incorporate idolatry into worship and see some amazing things as a result, we can know it is demonic.
Also demons can do lying wonders. If you ever listen to Jan Marquell (I think I spelled that right), they talk about miraculous things that the "queen of heaven" is doing all the time. This apparition is prophesying, healing, etc and she is leading many astray. So at the same time, a manifestation of power (though permitted by God) does not imply God's blessing on a given church, religious practice, etc.
So I'm pounding the discernment drum.
Never heard of Jan. But you make my point. Peter assumed rightly. I am not talking about an experience we were trying to make happen - at least the time I was caught into it. It was just like the song was there so sing, just like God's presence was there. So to assume singing in tongues is not legitimate simply because there is no point in scripture where it is mentioned is just as erroneous. Everything should be weighed on its own merits. I would rather ask - "what did that experience do for you in your relationship with God?" If it didn't deepen that relationship then I would call it into question. I agree Ben with testing all spirits, but where I put discernment is after the fact, not before.
ReplyDeleteAlso there are two choices to make when a false spirit is discerned. First is it an evil spirit or is it just someone needing attention? If you diagnose and treat wrongly you can do a lot of damage to folks.
If it is attention, which happens a lot in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles, then you need to ask if the affection is from a need for acceptance or just a need to show themselves spiritual. If it is acceptance then come along side and show them acceptance and the need will fall away along with the affection. If it is more of a 'look at spiritual me' then ask them what God is doing through this affection (I use the Jonathan Edwards term here, a more modern term is manifestation but let's not get that confused with demonic manifestations), if God isn't behind the affection this usually stops the distraction without destroying the person (something as a pastor I think we should value).
Now if it is indeed a demonic manifestation then we need to deal with that at a level of discretion comparable to the manifestation. I don't screw around with demons, I just kick them out when they turn up (which is not that common, at least not as the source of 'affections').
Frank
Here is the ending spin on the whole tongues issue...are you ready...without love you are nothing. It doesn't matter what you do in worship or in what tongue or spiritual babble that you think you are spewing out of your mouth. Without love you are a resounding gong. Now how many got a handle on love 100%???? Therefore, we are wasting our time debating whether Frank can worship in tongues or not! Frank is going to do what Frank wants to do...just make sure that we focus on the main thing first instead of the least of the spiritual gifts!
ReplyDeleteLovingly yours,
Joe
I don't know if you saw this one on SYF.org, but I'd love some (more) comments on this article. Oh and if it comes up with the comments - the Tozer quote that Nellynumberthree brought up is powerful too.
ReplyDeleteSo the link to the article: http://www.xanga.com/BenDGen/465396924/the-not-so-secret-to-effective-ministry.html
The Tozer exerpt is here: http://lmi.gospelcom.net/tozer.php3?date=03-28-06