Brian McLaren’s Inferno: five proposals for reexamining our doctrine of hell found at (found at Leadership Blog out of Ur)
In this final installment of his interview on hell, Brian McLaren provides more insight into how he understands the teachings of Jesus, and offers five suggestions for rethinking our traditional understanding of hell. This monday we will just look at one suggestion!
"Let me offer five suggestions on how we could re-approach this subject by looking at the Scriptures in a fresh light. After all, my opinions aren’t worth two cents compared to what the Scriptures actually say. First, I’d suspend the common assumption that every time the word judgment occurs in the Bible, it means “going to hell after you die,” or every time the word save occurs, it means “going to heaven after you die.”
Okay, thanks alot Brian...tell us what "NOT" to think about scripture but...leave us with just wishful thinking that those words are not really packed full of God's Wrath and God's Grace? Will there be a literal judgment? Will that judgment be based on those who are under the law and those who are under the new covenant? Will God really send people to Hell for eternity to burn in torment? Brian doesn't think so....so what about you??? The phone lines are now....open! Post away!
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
Honestly, I don't know for sure. This isn't one that the Holy Spirit has given me to know with certainty yet. I have a conviction, though.
ReplyDeleteI spent some time as a Seventh Day Adventist, so I am aware of some of the more compelling arguments for hell being a suffering for sins that leads to a permanent (eternal) end to the unbeliever's existence.
They point out that Jude seems to compare hell to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Then they point out that those "eternal fires" went out, but that those cities were destroyed for all eternity (ie the consequences of the fire are eternal). They also point out that to cease from existence permanently would be an eternal punishment. Also, some of the "orthodox church fathers" held the position that the eternal fire was a suffering that led to an eternal end to the unbeliever's existence.
On the other hand. One sin has led to the death of us all, so clearly God takes sin more seriously than we do. God is eternal. He is infinitely trustworthy and so any sin (any act of mistrusting God) would seem worthy of infinite punishing. In other words, the value of God makes eternal conscious suffering reasonable. Second, Jesus is God, and He humbled Himself in becoming a man, tying himself to temporal flesh. Christ's sacrifice has an eternal consequence to Him because the eternal put on temporal. (One of the things that stood in my way to acceptence of the doctrine of eternal hell was that Jesus did not pay by eternally concsiously suffering, but it is the value of the sacrifice that matters, not the length of time he spent suffering.) So it seems reasonable to take "eternal fire," "eternal punishment," etc at face value. Especially when it is specifically compared to eternal life. Mat 25:46 says, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." John 11:26 says those who believe in Jesus will never die. I know a preacher who is fond of pointing out that Matthew 25:46 is a perfect parallel in the greek, which means that the punishment lasts as long as the life.
I try to be charitable because both sides seem to make reasonable arguments that do not dismiss scripture (for the most part). I am persuaded toward eternal conscious suffering, but I wouldn't be shocked if the eternal fire is a time of suffering (according to ones works) that leads to the punishment of eternal death (cessation from existence).
There are some that say destruction IS the punishment and there will be no suffering involved - that contradicts the plain facts of scripture. Some say you suffer, but it's a cleansing fire and everyone will be saved eventually, but this is also clearly contrary to scripture (This is called Universalism).
In closing: "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!(Luke 12:4-5)"
My brother, Joe,
ReplyDeleteI believe you are putting words into McLaren's mouth as well as assuming conclusions that McLaren has not stated in the excerpt you provided.
The only thing that the Bible is really clear on is that all of us will face judgement on the Last Day. How God will judge us is something that belongs to Christ alone. We know what actions & attitudes bring forth destruction and we know what actions & attitudes are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God.
However, we are unable to cast judgement on such actions & attitudes, because that is not our role. There is one prosecutor, one advocate, and one judge...none of them are us. We are all defendants guilty of the same crime. Our advocate & judge are eagerly hoping that all of us may surrender & submit ourselves to the mercy of the court. If we do plea for mercy, we also experience grace; and amazing grace it truly is.
Peace be to you, my brother. I'm off to mow the yard.
Neil
Neil,
ReplyDeleteYou stated "The only thing that the Bible is really clear on is that all of us will face judgement on the Last Day. How God will judge us is something that belongs to Christ alone." The bible is very clear on many things, however, let me stick with the subject at hand, according to Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death!" Wow...that just told us who will be judged and how they will be judged! Once again my friend, the Bible is very clear, which makes us very accountable to a very holy God!
Joe,
ReplyDeleteBack from mowing... Yes, with just Revelations 21.8 in perspective, then we are all going skinny dipping in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. In that list, I think I have been guilty of ... well ... all of them! The Bible is very clear; but yet it's not. It's mysterious...which I think is a part of its beauty. Off to get some sweet tea...
Neil,
ReplyDeleteyou say in perspective of "Revelation 21:8" are you suggesting that this verse goes outside of what the Bible teaches? If so, start listing the scriptures, I would love to understand what you mean!
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
Steve,
ReplyDeleteI'm just curious because it is hard to pick up sarcasm and stuff. Obviously you are kidding around some in your last sentence, but are you saying you believe that God will not send people into "Ghehenna fire," the lake of fire (keeping it real PC and literal).
Neil,
The Revelation 21:8 verse has a simple solutions:
...do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (the receivers in homosexual acts), nor homosexuals (the givers in homosexual acts), nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
Hebrews 10:19-23 says it nicely: "Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; Believers are free of the consequence of Revelation 21:8 because we are cleansed by Christ's blood through our believing trust in what Jesus is and what He has done.
In Christ,
Ben
This is real simple. You accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, you go to heaven. This is good. You deny Jesus Christ, you go to HELL. This is bad. Look at the big picture, not the details.
ReplyDelete2 Corinthians 11:3-4 "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully."
ReplyDelete2 Corinthians 11:13-15 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."
It is simple, but it is about a simple devotion to the real Jesus. This is why we need to deal with the facts of scripture, and not twist the scriptures to make a God who is more palatable to us. (2 Peter 3:16 says we are even accountable for twisting scripture that is difficult to understand.)
Bringing this back to McLaren. The problem is that he has ridiculed at least one essential doctrine of the faith. (Substitionary atonment is a fundamental doctrine, and is taught amazingly clearly.) If His God wouldn't provide a substitute to die for our sins, then his Jesus could not be substitute for sins. Now we've got a big problem because McLaren has a different Jesus and he is mocking the real Jesus. That's all you need to know about him.
I depart with 2 Corinthians 11:3-4,13-16, "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully... (13-16) For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."
Ben...you hit the nail on the head!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
cell phone bro. I don't have your number, but you should have mine! So you are sure that you cannot email pastorjoe@insightbb.com??
ReplyDeleteYou know I keep hearing about beauty, wind, experience, mystery, and I agree all of those have their place in the Christian life, however, I think what we are debating about is the clarity of the Bible. THe Bible is very clear on many things that others are saying there is room for going outside of what the Bible has already made clear! And Steve, I valued my education at MBC as professional minister! Not saying it was a 100% worth it. But I feel that I was trained in a good many of things of which I still hold true to today! Not to mention the education that came from those woods outside of class!
ReplyDeleteDPS,
Joe
:)
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to verify.
A day of judgment according to our works for both the good and the wicked is absolutely essential, but I've even heard Todd Friel say that the doctrine of Annilation is only aberrant (bad) but not heretical (a denial of faith in Jesus or His essential character).
I kind of feel like I've said enough about McLaren for a while. Just curious, have you folks read A. W. Tozer's persuit of God? It is all about persuing the experience of God, but Tozer does not sellout the truth or teach like a bottle floating in the ocean. Here's a link to a cool clip to listen of Tozer preaching: http://www.fireonthealtar.com/compilations/usavedmeJesus/AW%20Tozer%20Preaching.ram
I think McLaren causes a knee-jerk reaction in a lot of people. He is asking some tough questions. What I don't see is McLaren telling us what to believe, just saying maybe there are different ways of getting at what we believe. I have enjoyed what I've read of McLaren so far, and I must confess that the community I pastor is fairly emergent. But I have a high value of truth - just not a high value of teaching through dogmatics. McLaren helps me to envision that process a bit more clearly so that I can shepherd my flock better.
ReplyDeleteReally amazing! Useful information. All the best.
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