This next question for Thursday Night Theology Throw-Down is quite simple, yet complex. I have ben asked this question more times in my ministry than any other cocerning SIN! Think about it, struggle with it, sleep on it and then get ready to THROW DOWN BABY!
Do we sin everyday? If so can "one" sin disqualify you from eternity in heaven when you die? We talked about suicide earlier this week...I heard the words unconfessed sin...so do we sin on a daily basis? Okay, it just got complex...are we eternally secure? Or can we loose our salvation? Therefore, is daily sin a beginning of a downward spiral in the process of loosing one's salvation? Or just part of our somewhat Calvanist's lifestyles? Shoot away fellas!
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
First I apologize if I've been getting a rhetorical and have been less gentle than I should be. (Balancing bold proclamation of truth and an gentle spirit can be difficult for me.)
ReplyDeleteOkay, so I'm wishy washy on this because there are two solid answers I am aware of and they both pretty much have the same net result.
One is the Calvanist perspective: If a person falls away from the faith they were never saved in the first place. They had a faith, but they never had a perservering faith and they were never born again or saved.
The other perspective is that a person believes is born again, and saved but loses their faith and therefore is erased from the book of life, etc.
The message of both, we need to desire a true and perservering faith. We need to depend on God's grace and mercy. We should not take our salvation for granted.
So I don't think sin itself can disqualify a professing believer from eternal life. Only faithlessness. Again, if a person's life is full of sin, how can they say they are born of God. How can they say they are a new creature with a new Spirit that desires what God desires if there is no change in their life.
I love James MacDonald's observation concerning this: when we become believers we repent and beleive initially to be converted, but that is the beginning of a life of repentence and belief as the Spirit sanctifies us. Take Galatians 3:2-5 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? So God makes us holy and cleans up our lives by the same process He saved us. I believe this life of prayerful repentence and prayerful faith is how we "walk in the Spirit."
So real faith is the issue, not works. But as James says, real faith cannot help but to do works.
We've been talking awesome things of God, so I you'll permit me the indulgence of a moment of praise.
Praise God who is the Divine Creator, who is not content to leave his creation fallen, but gives people rebirth into His own image. Praise God who adopts fallen men into His own family. Praise God who is the strength of all His children. Praise God the revealer of truth and mysteries. Praise God who stoops from His mighty estate to care for ants running around on His footstool.
Good points been...and thank you for praising the Father who is worthy! That did something for me when I read your praises, my soul praised with you towards God!
ReplyDeleteNo you talk about faithlessness taking one away from God...Great point! However, the question is can one sin disqualify you from eternity in heaven? What is sin? When you look at Jesus being tempted in the wilderness we see Jesus going through every temptation we will ever face. I can explain more on that later, but the point is that there is more at stake than you and I think when we sin...and every time we sin it is not a matter of self-control but one of faith! Therefore if faithfulness can take oyu out of heaven, every time we sin (on a daily basis) (or every so often) it overall is a matter of one's faith- saying GOd you can't be trusted, God if you don't, it won't, so I will! Now I am not talking of a life full of sin...that would be obvious...I'm talking about those sins either habitually, or the sins that for some reason we have to repent from at the end of the day!
Can one sin destroy:
ReplyDeleteYes one sin was enough to bring death to all mankind.
Can sin destroy a believer: No, we are no longer under the curse of the law: death has lost its sting. A beleiver has a Spirit with godly desires which is at war with our flesh which loves sin and the things of the world. While God has given us all the tools to win that battle, we do not always employ them or apply them correctly, and so we beleivers can fall into sin. Paul describes the situation this way in Romans 7:19-25: "For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. " Later in chapter 8, Paul says that if we are not "putting to death" the works of the flesh we aren't saved. But it is interesting because the way he says it implies growth. That we get better at subdoing the flesh. And so here we are, people who still commit sin, but want to do what is right in our Spirits.
So then for the believer, the issue isn't that we don't believe Jesus' words, but that we haven't applied Christ's victory over sin through faith. We have not crucified that sin by faith. We have not applied to the power of the ressurrection to live out Christ's life in that moment. The issue isn't that we don't have faith in Christ, but that we haven't applied our faith in Christ to overcome that temptation or whatever.
Let's not minimize sin though. One sin killed us all. One sin was enough to send Jesus to the cross so that many might be saved. One particular sin was enough to keep Moses from crossing the Jordan into the promised land during his earthly life. But here's the thing. God doesn't refrain from sin because He is afraid that he'll die or go to hell. God doesn't sin because He IS love. And through the Holy Spirit He fills us with love. Sure we hate sin because of what it does to people, because hinders our relationship with God, because it cost Jesus His life, but the bottom line is we hate it simply because it is inconsistent with our new divine character.
Lastly, I don't want to leave this left undone. Sin does have consequences for the believer.
1) God chastizes His children to teach us His ways. How much better would it be if we learned to live God's way with only a little chastizement.
2) Unconfessed sin hinders our communion with God until we confess it.
3) Sin mars our testimony of God's work in our lives.
4) Sin can damage or maybe even destroy the ministry that God wants to do through our lives.
(The last three may not sound like a big deal to non-beleivers, but as believers, we have a deep desire to be with God, be like God, serve God and advance His kingdom, so that would hurt big-time.)
Did I miss anything... I'm sure I did. It's a grand topic. Love you all.
Can I just say again: How great is our God?
And isn't it better to come at theology with an attitude of praise, seeing the love and magnitude of God. (I've only begun to catch on to this.)
God's Ink
ReplyDeleteAll of this God erasing our name stuff seems a bit funny. (I know it's just the way we conceptualize the guest list) God is eternal and it seems that all of His marvelous works are eternal. If he's up there writing our names down wouldn't that be eternal, too?
That's the question Steve...can and will he blot out your name from the book of life? Ben...go check out www.northpoint.org this is Andy Stanley's church...when you get there click on "SERMONS ONLINE" You can view listen to these sermons but I suggest you watch them...scroll down and check out the "PAUSE" series There are four parts, however, the first one will talk about what SIN actually is and does! Let me know what you think of the "PAUSE" series bro!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
After losing a novella to the sea of lost data, I am simply going to post some key texts (in addition to Romans 7) and let you decide. Oh I should also point out that Andy does not support his claim with that "trust in God is always at stake in temptation," with any scripture at all. He does not support the idea that sin damages real faith or that repeated sin can result in loss of belief from scripture either. He pretty much assumes it to be true.
ReplyDeleteSo those scriptures:
Mark 14:37-38 And He *came and *found them sleeping, and *said to Peter, "Simon, are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? "Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Mark 14:70-71 And after a little while the bystanders were again saying to Peter, "Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean too." But he began to curse and swear, "I do not know this man you are talking about!"
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:33-34 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Heb 4:13-16 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Can't resist one note: Grace to help in the time of need refers to coming before God to get His power to overcome temptation.)
Can't resist another. Paul's woe toward his own ongoing inability to overcome sin leads him to praise God for Christ's abilitly to overcome sin in him. Peter is restored to Christ having learned a valuable lesson about depending on God rather than Himself (in regard to ovecoming temptation specifically).
Ben...Andy Stanley uses Luke 4 to show that sin is ultimately a faith issue!
ReplyDeleteBurden's on you because it definitely isn't directly stated in the text, and really if you've got a statement somewhere else in scripture that substantiates that claim let me know. Also, you have not yet addressed how Romans 7 can be true at the same time as Mr. Stanly's absolute claim.
ReplyDeleteMore observations: It takes more than raw than faith to overcome temptation. We need to discern what the temptation actually is, and we need to discern the way out. If a person has never been taught to seek God for wisdom in the time of testing/temptation, then isn't it possible that could be their be the problem at least in some cases?
So without further ado. The temptation according to Luke:
Luke 4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread."
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone.'[a]"
The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours."
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'[b]"
The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[c]"
Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'[d]"
When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.
(By the way, the fact that Jesus was fasting implies he was having a time of intense prayer. Pretty cool if you ask me.)
Never mind the Romans 7 thing. Technically that is about the Spirit and not about faith (although can the two be separated?)
ReplyDeleteHere's my thing. To make an absolute conclusion from a story is not a good habit. Certainly we can draw out principles, but narratives describe events while other parts of scripture prescribe ie say things straightforwardly. If I was teaching on David versus Goliath I couldn't just say, "The only way to slay a Giant Philistine is with a sling shot and faith in God," unless there was other supporting evidence for that somewhere else in scripture. Absolutely that is how David applied his faith in God. Certainly there are useful principles in the story, but if we want to say something is the end all and be all, we need a more direct teaching or more repetive pattern. So can Andy say, "your faith is at stake in every temptation" or "these three categories describe every category of temptation that exists?" My answer is not without overstepping the bounds of scripture, unless he has a more direct teaching on it. The temptation of Christ simply describes how He defeated it. Is it a great model?! Halelujah, you better believe it. Is it possible that there could be more to it than that? Yes that can be true also.
-Bne
oh oh...
ReplyDeletelook what I quoted a few conversations back:
I like the way Jamieson, Fausset and Brown put it in their commentary: "Of sin, because they believe not on me — As all sin has its root in unbelief, so the most aggravated form of unbelief is the rejection of Christ. The Spirit, however, in fastening this truth upon the conscience, does not extinguish, but, on the contrary, does consummate and intensify, the sense of all other sins."
So was I wrong then or now? So basically I'm going to (try to) zip my lips. Admit I must have been careless at some point, and admit that I probably am more excited about arguing than honoring God at least during parts of these conversations.
No Ben..your awesome, I totally enjoy reading your posts! My fault for not reading previous posts more carefully! Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the encouragement!
ReplyDeleteBut I'd still like to check my motives and stay careful.
You have to admit that it is a little ironic that the part of what I thought sounded pretty cool about a week ago is what I am persistenlty arguing against this week (just the word "all" though).
I really appreciate what you do here also. "And if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him (Ecc 4:12)." I'm just quoting that because it seems like most often we fall on the same side of a given argument and it is a pleasure to go into battle with you.
Blabbermouth Ben ;)