Wow, I have never heard such powerful preaching! You have to check this out! Even if you only have a couple of minutes, download this mp3 onto your computer or ipod and hold on. Paul Washer from Heart Cry Missionary Society calls it straight about what it really means to be a follower of Christ.
http://www.wotmradio.com/page/12/
yeah. not interested in being yelled at for that length of time.
ReplyDeleteThere's nothing to be said after a sermon like that. The only thing I can do is try not to run from it.
ReplyDeleteFrank, all I can say is that there is something in there for all of us! What you call yelling is a mans passion for the church in America! I would challenge you...however tough it is, to listen to this message...you can either listen to it know or here it when you see God face to face!
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
I listened to enough of it. But to be honest my BS'o'meter was going off soon as he started talking about a sleepless night. Throw in the ranting and you get emotional manipulation. I think God is going to have better things to do in the age to come than yell at his faithful.
ReplyDeleteI do get that there is a need for Christianity to be more than just some lipservice acknowledgement of God. But there is a world of difference between calling folks into the works of God and guilting them into some sort of parody of holiness.
Again, no thanks.
So at what point did he misinterpret the text?
ReplyDeleteYou don't get it at all One of Freedom. I will pray for you to be able to hear the hard things of God!
ReplyDeleteA brother in Christ
LOL. Ben I didn't get far enough for him to leap in the the truly heretic. But from the little I did hear his view of the judgement of God overshadowed the grace of God.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I spent many years listening to "hard" messages. The problem is they don't bear out with the whole testimony of the Word. The Bible is an incredible story of God who stretched out his arms to humanity (both in the cross and in opportunity for redemption) and welcomed them into his Kingdom. The hard bits are typically addressed to the pharisaical or religious leaders who lead people into ever increasing legalisms and away from the heart of God which is for the poor and needy. So maybe you feel like you are in that camp and need to be lambasted by self-styled "prophets", but me I would rather do the things of Christ because I know the love of God. I would rather go and feed the poor (I'm actually doing that today with some of my parishoners), pray for the sick, set free the oppressed and generally do what my Lord has given me the privilige of walking out. If that puts me in jeopardy of hell then maybe it is you who should listen to the "hard" message of God.
Though I do appreciate any prayer I can get, no matter how misguided.
Hey Frank, I have listened to this message about four times with my staff, understanding that evangelist/missionairies blow in, blow up and blow out. Our discussion has circled around a couple of things...is there anything this guy is saying that we need to hear as leaders and ministers of the gospel? (My answer was yes) Secondly, how do we communicate some of the truths shared by Paul Washer to a congregation we have to see on a weekly basis, (unlike Mr. Paul) I agree that his method of delivery is edgy and not very comfortable...if you pick up on some truths and principles that you may not be teaching or living out! I was able to listen to large portions of this message and feel fine about my ministry and my salvation. Other portions gave me more insight and understanding on how I present the gospel to other people, especially young people!
ReplyDeleteTherefore, I just wanted to get every ones opinion and critique concerning the Church in America. Where are we failing? Where are we succeding! I'm talking about the church as a whole...not a denomonation, not a certain wing of the Body of Christ...all of us together! Look forward to the comments!
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
Frank,
ReplyDeleteObservations - The target audience was not primarily believers - it was false converts. He's not trying to inspire false holiness in believers, he's hoping that false converts will diagnose themselves, truly turn to God, and be born into true holiness.
If we combine the parable of the soils and of the sower we find a number of things. First, there are people who just don't care about the truth. There are people who respond to the truth at first, they start out like a believer, but they are flirting with the gospel and not surrendered to Christ. These folks don't perservere in the faith. Then there are people who respond and endure in the word until the end but never produce fruit because they are distracted - (these folks are given no assurance of salvation). Then there is a true and soundly saved convert who hear's the truth, dedicates his or her life to singlemindedly seeking first the kingdom of God, and perservere's in faith. On top of of those folks, there are also folks who seem an awful lot like believers who are growing up in a faith, but they believe a false gospel. (The "tares" Jesus is talking about are very difficult to distinguish from wheat until the plant is almost to maturity. Also they are "in the field," which means they are among the church.)
So since there are 3 kinds of false converts that are difficult to differentiate from true believers for anyone but God, then it would be reasonable to preach sermons targetting these false converts from time to time. (Especially when warning signs are present!) Also, when we go back to Matthew 7, we find that there are "many" of these false converts (crying out "Lord, Lord.") And these false converts are on the "wideroad," thinking they are headed for heaven. So...
Can you please tell me why we shouldn't target this "many" even though we don't know exactly who they are, warn them to sober up and turn wholly to Jesus?
Even if Paul were out of wack most of the time. How did he fail to convey the truth of Matthew 7 in this particular sermon? Have you heard other sermons by this preacher or have you judged his entire minsitry on a few minutes of hard preaching?
Now listen, if he characterized God as someone who needs to kick his dog in order to forgive his children (like Brian McLaren did), I could understand why you'd say you've heard enough, but so far all Paul has done is present a serious warning from scripture in a forceful way.
You can't preach the entire character of God in one sermon. We develop a "clear" view of God over a lifetime. So Paul is emphasizing a real warning that God incarnate really made. In fact, you could apply the arguments you made against Paul's sermon to the source text: Christ's sermon on the mount. (Okay, we don't know if Jesus was "yelling," according to your perception, but your other ascertions apply.)
In love,
Oh and Joe about the American church as a whole... let's put it this way.
ReplyDelete"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"
(Rev 3:14-22)
Well said Ben! I am in the process of downloading more of Paul Washer sermons. I was told by my intern who has already heard his other messages, that they are very similar to the one I posted! THe man is on a mission and passionate, which goes with scripture saying never be lacking in fervor and zeal! Apparently the church that he preached to was so used to "comfortable...God is love" messages that they got their toes stepped on when they started clapping and Paul told them..."Don't clap...I'm talking about you!" Ben I wonder what Frank thinks about the classics like Spurgeon and Whitefield...what a minute and I will ask him. Hey Frank you out there...hey Ben and I were just wondering how you feel about the classic preachers like Spurgeon and Whitefield?? They got the job done and told the people what they needed to hear...somehow we have lost that along the way and become peoples "friends" and not their pastor or Christian brother! Frank...hey before you go, riddle me this, what preachers/speakers do you listen to?
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
Has anyone noticed the words written on the dude's shirt with his hands in the air? Ironic when you take in to consideration the topic at hand!
ReplyDelete"have you judged his entire minsitry on a few minutes of hard preaching?"
ReplyDeleteYes, it is funny that I say I don't want to listen to someone yell at me and you are assuming I disliked his message. I didn't even hear his message. I couldn't get past the opening BS about a sleepless night and then yelling at me. The reason is I used to be that pastor. When I was a pentecostal minister I knew many who would yell and claim this kind of thing, yet they were the ones without their lives matching their words. So have I unfairly judged him. You bet. I don't know this guy. But I won't either, because I've wasted enough of my time on yellers who more often than not have emotions not good arguments. I'm also prejudiced against Ray Comfort ministries, where it came from, because Comfortites are amongst the rudest evangelicals I know personally. That also means I won't bother with Ray - so don't bother recommending him.
But what is interesting is that you assume I am not willing to hear the "hard" message. (Whatever that is supposed to mean). For what it is worth I am an avid student of the Word and I've spent many hours on my knees wrestling with hard stuff from the Word. In fact I've preached some zingers to crowds that I felt were not ready, but God told me otherwise. But I don't yell at my people ever. We might debate on the rare occasion, usually one on one, but I don't hold back and still I don't find a need to yell, rant or anything like that (well I do rant on my blog from time to time).
Joe, I don't listen to a lot of sermons. I do read though, and I read a lot. Right now I'm reading a real tough one - Exclusion and Embrace by Miroslav Volf. If you ever want to find out what it means to follow Jesus read that book. I just read his Free of Charge which has the best teaching on forgiveness I've ever read in my life.
BTW I have a tonne of Spurgeon on my shelf but no time to read it. Someday, it comes highly recommended. I know a fair bit about Whitefield, Wesley, Zinzendorf and Edwards. But they are people of their time and culture. I know them from a historic perspective and just as they situated their message in their culture we also should do the same. I tend to read books more than sermons, my favourite authors are Jurgen Moltmann (now that guy challenges you), Lane (The Experience of God is a classic), Ricoeur who has a tremendous understanding of real freedom and of course the biblical authors.
Hey thanks for the references on folks to check up on and read for a good challenge. It seems that you have some history here that I appreaciate you sharing with all of us who check out this blog! So can I ask you a personal question and feel free to share with us if you can...but what was ministry like for you back in the day? What took place in the past that made you decide not to pursue pastoring? And don't mind us...we all give each other the business once in a while...that's how Ben and I met! Remember that Ben! It's a blog family thing, of which I consider you a part! Even though we all come from different points of views and backgrounds, we all share Christ and the calling to be his feet and hands! Have a great night!
ReplyDeleteSigning off for now, for the best of yesterday and the best of today, we'll be spinning the night away with your favorite oldies here at WKRP in Cincinatti...
Way of the Pastor,
Joe
Joe,
ReplyDeleteIf you really want advice how to bring that message to your church. I'd start by sharing my heart and admitting that it pains me to know that some if not many of the people sitting in this congregation are false converts. I'd let the tears Paul cried come out at the beginning of the message and not the end, and I'd maintain that spirit throughout, but only if that is how I genuinely felt. On the other hand, I don't know your Congregation like the Holy Spirit does, or even you yourself, and so take that for what it's worth. You know me: I just love to mix it up, so...
I do remember. It is easy to misunderstand where a person is coming from based on a couple sound bites :) which brings me to Frank...
Frank,
What I am hearing from you now is that you have judged this preacher based on his tone of voice, but what is more telling is that you base this on some, (well is it pain?) you have experienced. Maybe there is some unhealed wounds in your life? You probably see me as an adversary, but I do care if that's the case.
On the other hand, you said Paul was BS'ing. Using guilt inappropriately. Overshadowing God's grace with His judgment. And associate Paul with legalists. So if you would please have a grace on me for assuming what I did.
(And thank you for preaching the hard messages in your church!!!)
-Ben
Joe, I ama pastor. I never lost my love for people and teaching. My mode is more akin to the old parish priest than the new fangled CEO take charge types. But that is because I have matured over the years. And no Ben, I'm not experiencing any pain - but I learned enough to stay out of the way of folks who use (or even appear to use) emotion to enforce their opinion - even if they are right. I just choose not to listen to folks who insist on yelling. For every yeller there are many more saner voices who are saying similar things, and even better (because they are not trying to convince you with emotion). So when I hit that kinda crap I just don't bother. I should say there is one caveat - if God tells me to listen then by all means.
ReplyDeleteWhat was ministry like? Well there were a few things that were disappointing about my early years in ministry. Some of it has taken years to sort through and much of it has to do with who God has created me to be (think parish priest who knows everyone in the community and comes along side to bring comfort, encouragement and even correction. In other words I'm as much a pastor sharing my weekly messages as I am sitting for coffee with a parishoner or even helping them build fences and decks, etc.)
The first issue was a complete hierarchical perspective complete with a social climbing ladder. I completely dispise this, it bred elitism and a lust for power that is completely contrary to the gospels. The second issue was similar - a vying for the pulpit. I was part of a churh where the coveted place was in the pulpit. And we were a street mission! Much of it was that two of us (there were three associate pastors) were really young. I was in my early 20s (I'm 39 now) and I was really young as a Christian.
The third thing I encountered in that world was a disdain for eductation. This anti-intellectualism was bolstered by poking fun at educated people, especially so-called liberal theologians (of which they had never read anything except quotes out of context (like Ben's McClaren quote, I don't always agree with McClaren but at least he is honest)). This was bolstered by an appeal to emotion to make points rather than real study of the Scriptures. Prooftexting was rampant and many of my own sermons I shudder to think of the spiritual damage I've done with. These folks read the bible, but they treat it like the JWs do - connect the random dots to support their premises, that is not the way to do scriptural studies.
Finally it was a very competitive environment. It wasn't about God's glory it was about our glory. We recounted the stories of our exploits and barely realized how utterly gracious God had to be to deal with idiots like us.
Yelling was part of that culture and so when I hear yellers that's one strike, if they play on my emotions (telling me they were up all night praying for me, this might be true but when you tell me you a) lose your reward and b) make a play to buy my emotional support for whatever you say next) that is strike 2. And I'm not playing baseball so that is enough for me to shut you off.
Frank,
ReplyDeleteI don't have enough hours in a day to argue with you...you definately have some things to sort out, you seem on edge! Check out www.northpoint.org click sermons and check out Andy Stanley's series called "It came from WIthin: check out the sermon "Killing the Beast!" Seriously, as a brother in Christ, check it out, (there is no yelling) but there is some great principles in there concerning "one's story and one's past!" Let me know! Dude, please don't post back and tell me what you don't like or that you didn't even listen to it because you can't get past the fact that Andy sees himself as a CEO in ministry. Just listen to it...if you don't then move on! In fact if any of you get a chance listen to the whole series!
One for the road,
Joe
I am confused as to why you think I am on edge? That is likely more of a failing of the medium than words, but maybe my words sounded like someone on edge.
ReplyDeleteBTW some of my best friends are CEO type pastors. I hope you don't think I'm trying to diss that, I was trying to give you a better picture of who I am. I just happened to be thrown into a world that was more oriented towards the CEO types and didn't fit for me - so with God's help I moved on. We are also talking quite a number of years ago now, and quite a bit of God's help healing through some of the more damaging aspects.
What doesn't come across is that those days were quite foundational for me. I developed a passion for seeing folks come into relationship with Christ in those days - I just realized that some of the methods employed in doing that were not suited to who God had made me.
Anyway, I'm listening to the message now, let you know what I think.
Oh and BTW I'm not looking for an argument.
LOL. Joe, that is actually not a bad message. He makes some jumps that I don't follow, but I don't think he is wrong in his conclusions. Are you saying by this that you think I am still holding anger over my past? Being able to name the issues that were at stake is actually a prerequisite for my own repentance, especially of what Andy called the "you owe me" attitudes that were/are my own sinful response to situations I have faced. Actually this is a lot of what I'm working through with Volf's book Exclusion and Embrace, but Volf goes deep on what Andy only scratches. But let me assure you that I have not only repented of my own sinful responses, I've also sought out making peace with folks from that world where I have been able.
ReplyDeleteBut I still can't get my head around why you guys got so upset that I was offended that the original speaker was a yeller. Having repented of my attitudes does not mean I go and throw myself in front of the same train. I don't mind passionate, I just don't like manipulative. And from what I did hear of the start of the message I am confident I am not missing out on anything really important.
I guess this will lead into your next post - methodologies of evangelism. I'm one of those folks who dislikes the Living Water's modus operandi.
It just seems as though you are quick to speak and judge and slow to take in soemthing past 5 minutes and after 5 minutes you consider it BS and manipulative. I don't know you, I just know what you tell me and it seems that as you have already informed us, is more connected with your past than Paul Washer. I don't really care if you like it or not, just watch bashing what God may be trying to tell the American church. I got past the part of the praying for me all night, that didn't move me a bit. I'm just interested as to why that type of prayer moves you?
ReplyDeleteWay of the Pastor,
Joe
It didn't move me, it sent up a flag, a warning that said this guy might be making a play on our emotions. Then the yelling almost from the get go. And finally the absence of grace in his message and so click.
ReplyDeleteYou know maybe it is just the American church that is willing to subject themselves to that kinda crap that needs to hear that message and I overstepped my bounds.
Anyway, let's move on to other topics. I think your next one is good fun. BTW I liked your last comment on the tongues thread.